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July 17, 2015

Ask The Experts

Ask The Experts #29

Ziconic and Cozmic One stand opposite each other. Photo by Kyle Acebo
Ziconic and Cozmic One stand opposite each other. Photo by Kyle Acebo

Q:

How large is Cozmic One and how does he compare in size to Zenyatta at the same age?

Lib Berry

Phoenix, AZ

A:

Coz is approximately 1,060 pounds and 16’3 at this time. One of the big differences between Coz and Zenyatta is that she has an amazing beam (this is how wide a horse is from hip bone to hip bone). Ziconic, at this stage of his life, is smaller than both Zenyatta and Coz but he does have her beam. Ziconic is robust while Coz is classic in his physical appearance.

Expert: John Shirreffs

Q:

I have great admiration for John as a trainer and Dottie as a manager along with the other very perceptive and knowledgeable team you surround yourselves with.  Knowing how closely you listen to and monitor each horse as an individual, how do you make the decision to run a horse, in what type of race, and on what surface?

Sheryl North

Tucson, AZ

A:For a first time starter, you must feel comfortable with the fact that the horse is physically and mentally ready to start his/her career. Timing and physical condition for a first time starter is more important than the surface.  

As for surface, unless you know a horse prefers either dirt or turf (from the morning training or prior races), I (John) believe that the timing of the race is most important. You want a horse ‘peaking’. If running well on the dirt, then you continue this. If not, and the pedigree is turf oriented, then the turf would be an option.

In most racing jurisdictions, you do not get to train on the turf. 99% of the time horses are training on dirt, so you have a very good opportunity to observe how they handle this surface from the morning workouts. Body language and how the horse moves is also an important concept to examine, review, and consider.

As for selecting races, so much of this is based upon how he/she is  training, both physically and mentally, and the class of the horse. The first goal is to have the horse break his/her maiden. Once this is accomplished, there are allowance races for horses to run in where they can ‘move up the ladder’ and show how much progress they are making and class they are exhibiting.  

Can a horse keep moving up the ladder, meeting more serious competition with success? This is the primary consideration here.

Below are the primary levels for horses to participate in as they are ‘moving up the ladder’:

• Break the Maiden
• First level allowance
• Second level allowance
• Third-plus level and conditioned allowance races
• Listed Stakes
• Graded Stakes: Grade 3, Grade 2, and Grade 1 (which is the best)

If a horse is having difficulty achieving at the various stages of the above levels, there are claiming races for those horses. They are offered at different levels and conditions in the various jurisdictions.

When you are selecting races for a horse, you are basically handicapping the race and the ‘results’ without knowing officially who the other entrants are. The entries are taken days in advance prior to the race. This is where studying races and the competition each day becomes extremely necessary and important. You must know who else is eligible for that condition or what other horse could be planning on the same spot you are. Then you have to consider whether your horse can compete with these horses successfully.

All of these factors are extremely important and must be considered. The goal is always to put your horse in the best race possible for optimum achievement!

Experts: John Shirreffs and Dottie Ingordo-Shirreffs

Our Experts

js_ate

John Shirreffs

Trainer

John Shirreffs has been around horses all of his life and has always felt it was important to help a horse become significant, to make history. Zenyatta’s Breeders Cup wins helped his dreams come true. Read John’s complete bio.

dottie_ate

Dottie Ingordo-Shirreffs

Racing Manager

As the Moss’ Racing Manager for the last 29 years, Dottie has actively been a part of each Moss horse’s life. It’s a family affair, as her husband John trains many of the horses that she manages. Read Dottie’s complete bio.

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Reader Interactions

294 Comments

  1. Karen

    July 17, 2015 at 12:25 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you so much for answering the questions and giving us more information on the boys. It’s so interesting to follow their careers. We appreciate all the photos too of Zenyatta and her boys!

  2. Diane

    July 17, 2015 at 12:26 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you John and Dottie and Team Z for a most interesting “Ask the Experts” segment. Your insight and knowledge help to understand exactly what it takes to get to the races. The comparison of Z and her boys was spot on, the first family of racing.

  3. paul napolitano

    July 17, 2015 at 12:27 pm

    / Reply

    Was it ever considered to run Zenyatta in the 10 million dollar world cup?

    • EliRose

      July 17, 2015 at 3:13 pm

      / Reply

      She was a poor traveler – I doubt it.

  4. Amy Rooney

    July 17, 2015 at 12:30 pm

    / Reply

    I would love to see Zenyatta bred to Birdstone or Lemon Drop Kid. Awesome horse.

    • Deana in Tx

      July 18, 2015 at 8:24 am

      / Reply

      What about Pioneer of the Nile or American Pharoah? I could see another triple crown winner there if they are compatable.

  5. Gloria

    July 17, 2015 at 12:35 pm

    / Reply

    Great information. Thanks for another installment. Have a great weekend, Team Z.

  6. Jan S. / Houston

    July 17, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    / Reply

    I really look forward to the Q & A blog. It is very interesting and informative! Thanks guys!

  7. Linda R. Moss

    July 17, 2015 at 12:38 pm

    / Reply

    Aw – the Brothers! <3 Love and hugs, George, Linda, and Milyone

  8. Aliee

    July 17, 2015 at 12:39 pm

    / Reply

    If either colt doesn’t show the potential to run as their pedigree. Is it possible to acquire one for another event. I show in the jumper division. I would love to have a prospect bred from this direction.

  9. Cathleen

    July 17, 2015 at 12:55 pm

    / Reply

    Wow, thanks for the meaty answer to how you select a race. Not that I thought it was a crap shoot, I had no idea the level of detail and consideration that goes into race selection. Now that I’ve been educated for the day, it’s time for happy hour and watching the Del Mar races!

  10. Karen Forehand

    July 17, 2015 at 1:11 pm

    / Reply

    Wonderful questions and informative answers. Thank you John!

  11. Francine Iuliucci

    July 17, 2015 at 1:25 pm

    / Reply

    Always looking out for your prized horses. Thanks for all you do to make a good choice for these beautiful gifts; the horse!

  12. Judy Berube from Rhode Island

    July 17, 2015 at 1:43 pm

    / Reply

    Dear John and Dottie S:

    Thank you for answering these great questions in detail. COZ and ZI are very different in build and thanks for explaining the meaning of “beam”. They are both stunning looking boys.

    Also, thank you for giving us the insight into knowing when a horse is ready to start and how the graduation into racing progresses and, in some cases, horses joining the Claiming levels. So rare and generous of you to answer question for the fans and explain the intricacies involved in racing. Thank you. Love and Hugs, JB

  13. maryp ny

    July 17, 2015 at 1:44 pm

    / Reply

    Thank so much John and Team Z for answering these good questions in such detail.

    I hope our Cozmic One figures out what he needs and what you work on to get him to be his best.
    Ziconic is looking so good and hope he’s liking it there with you at the track.

    Best to you and Team Z always,
    Maryp

  14. Carol LaJoie

    July 17, 2015 at 1:54 pm

    / Reply

    It always so great to read how Zenyatta and her boys are doing.
    I wish the best for them all.
    Will cosmic one make a good race horse, does he like racing, when will he race again
    Thanks
    Carol

  15. Kimberly

    July 17, 2015 at 1:57 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you so much for the wonderful information!!!

  16. sheena.davies(wales)

    July 17, 2015 at 2:06 pm

    / Reply

    Dear Team Z.Thank you, again,for a very informative Ask the Experts.John and Dottie are just the best!2 young colts out of the same mother yet so different in looks and personality.Both handsome boys though!!Love and hugs SheenaX

  17. ♥Auntie Judy aka JAG So. California

    July 17, 2015 at 2:10 pm

    / Reply

    Hi John
    Thanks for taking the time to walk us through the steps of your training and expertise.

    I had the honor and pleasure of meeting Ziconic when he was just over 2 months old at Lane’s End. My eye went to his engine! My observation was that he had his momma’s engine aka beam! I’m glad to see I agree with you LOL

    Both boys are magnificent but so different, not just in coloring, but mannerism. :-) I look forward to Coz’s next race, and ZI’s debut.

    We miss you on the West Coast!
    p.s. Hugs to ♥ Sophie XO

  18. Leslie R.

    July 17, 2015 at 2:42 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you John and Dottie!! I enjoy the “Ask the Experts” segments a lot! They are always very informative and fun.

    Hugs to all,
    Leslie

  19. Roberta

    July 17, 2015 at 3:31 pm

    / Reply

    I’m so glad you explained the difference between the boys. Even though I don’t know a lot about horses (never owned any) when Ziconic was born, I noticed that he had more muscle and body to him, then most foals, who are all legs, and a little skinny, when first born. Then at 3 weeks he was running right with his mother until out of site. The next thing was even noticed at the farm, that he put his head down, and really liked his work. Now at Belmont, on the video, it looked like he already has the idea of racing. And finally, I couldn’t believe it, when I saw the pictures of him doing his Mom’s dance. Do all these things put together, mean that he could be ready to run earlier then Zenyatta and Coz were? Could he run in the Spring Classics?

    • Deb E.

      July 17, 2015 at 3:33 pm

      / Reply

      Wouldn’t that be wonderful? I’m praying that Z13 will be #13 in 2016!

  20. Ingrid Arnone

    July 17, 2015 at 3:32 pm

    / Reply

    Dear John and Dottie,
    Thank you, is great to know all that great information about our Cozmic One and our Ziconic.
    I wish you the best with both of them, I hope Coz runs again soon.
    Hugs Ingrid.

  21. shirleeinindy

    July 17, 2015 at 3:39 pm

    / Reply

    Thanks so much to Team Z, John and Dottie for answering our questions. There is always something new to learn and further our understanding of what is involved to breed, raise, train and race ond of these magnificent animals.

    Glad to hear that The Red Prince has lots of junk in his trunk!

    Max, Video and pictures of Danny Boy on Bloodhorse.com

    • ♥Auntie Judy aka JAG So. California

      July 17, 2015 at 4:37 pm

      / Reply

      LOL Junk In His Trunk :-) haven’t heard that expression for a while!

    • Max

      July 18, 2015 at 2:30 am

      / Reply

      I saw the video. Dan is Dan.
      Like the comment that Ziconic is “robust.” In that photo, he appears not to be thrilled to have his bro in the shot. Good however for us to be able to see the difference in their heights so far.

  22. sheena.davies(wales)

    July 17, 2015 at 3:52 pm

    / Reply

    Our champion jockey Richard Hughes is unexpectedly retiring after Glorious Goodwood and not at the end of the season as planned.The son of the late Dessie Hughes will be in competition with his brother-in-law Richard Hannon next season as a trainer.Ryan Moore is also very frustrated at being side-lined with injury and hopes to be back ASAP.Sheena.

  23. sheena.davies(wales)

    July 17, 2015 at 4:18 pm

    / Reply

    Dear Judy.Just been watching the video of Wise Dan.So great to see him back and looking so well.CC may have already arrived in Kentucky and they see no reason why he cannot carry on racing next year.Do you remember the twin pandas from Atlanta Zoo Mei Huan and Mei Lun?They celebrated their 2nd birthday this week and are having their iced cake tomorrow.Goodnight God bless you LM PC HT Cap Hercules Frank and all the Sweeties.Love and hugs SheenaX

    • Judy Berube from Rhode Island

      July 17, 2015 at 9:19 pm

      / Reply

      Dear Sheena:

      Saw the video of Dan having a bath after his breeze; he looks wonderful. Wishing CC all the very best. Love that boy. I do remember the baby Pandas from the Atlanta Zoo. Hope they enjoy their iced cakes. Love and Hugs, JB, LM, PC, HT, Cap, Herc, Frank and all the Sweeties

  24. andrej

    July 17, 2015 at 4:27 pm

    / Reply

    Coz in photo you look like you try to be leading stallion in herd, Ziconic is young horse, he stay quietly, he is kind and agree, in previous video there was hoose with water between you, i think grooms remember that you are stallions and keep some safe distance between you and with other horses too, Coz beam growed by himself, breeze like you like, in race videos you move like Zenny and keep your tail like mom, Coz and Zi hear trainer, races on dry hard course in hot summer weather make me some afraid of, simply many news about mishapps of horses, climate, weather, finances,, wish, to look on photo of Zenny, beautyfull Zenny Ziconic Coz and mates kiss your soft noses

    • Judy Berube from Rhode Island

      July 17, 2015 at 9:01 pm

      / Reply

      Dear andrej:

      Lovely post. Love and Hugs, JB

  25. patricia jones

    July 17, 2015 at 5:10 pm

    / Reply

    great to see coz and zi together i thought for a long while that zi would be the larger of the two

  26. sue

    July 17, 2015 at 5:27 pm

    / Reply

    COZ we love you buddy.

    CAPPERS WE HAVE RACE TOMORROW.
    Please contact Sandy from Ohio.
    Sandy is Captain this year of Zentastic.
    TC , Girl Shanghai and some others are missing.
    Come on let’s play anyway
    The BC gave up but we are survivors.
    Send requests to Sandy.
    If you want to play great more the better.
    If you can’t contact Sandy reply to me Captian Sue
    The first race is the Eddie Read. Bets in by post time.
    Love you all

    Cozyoustillcan
    Zikyoucanto

    CAPPERS please respond.

    • Judy Berube from Rhode Island

      July 17, 2015 at 9:00 pm

      / Reply

      Dear Cap Sue:

      Thank you and Sandy for keeping the Capping Contest going. Love and Hugs, JB

  27. Kathy

    July 17, 2015 at 5:53 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you so much John, Dottie and Team Z for so much background information. It means the world to all of us to be given insight into your world and that of Zenyatta and her wonderful family.

  28. PatB from NM

    July 17, 2015 at 7:06 pm

    / Reply

    Beautiful babies, dearest Zenyatta. Love you and them always.

  29. Donna Z

    July 17, 2015 at 7:15 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you, John & Dottie for your in depth answers to these questions. I am really learning so much more about racing from you.

    To everyone on the blog: Opening day at Saratoga this year is next Thursday, July 23. I am sure that John & his team are preparing to move their horses, including Coz & Ziconic very soon. John’s barn is located at the Oklahoma training track across the street from the main track. There is more area between the barns here than at the main track & the atmosphere here is calming & relaxing. Horses are said to thrive here. Some trainers, like Nick Zito keep their horses here when it is open for training & trailer them to race at Belmont or other tracks when they race. I’m sure that Coz will enjoy being back here & Ziconic will love it, too.

    Also, important to all of horse racing, one of our NY representatives, Paul Tonko & Rep. Andy Barr from KY have introduced the Thoroughbred Horseracing Integrity Act in Congress. This bill aims to create a standard of drug rules for all states with pari-mutuel racing. If this bill is passed, there would be uniform drug rules at all US tracks. Hopefully, this will bring us one step closer to drug free horse racing & also helps clean up racing’s negative reputation.

    • Judy Berube from Rhode Island

      July 17, 2015 at 8:59 pm

      / Reply

      Dear Donna Z:

      Thanks for this info on Saratoga and the Drug Bill. Love and Hugs, JB

    • shirleeinindy

      July 18, 2015 at 9:35 am

      / Reply

      Donna Z,
      Thanks for the info about John moving the stable to Saratoga. Wonder if Ziconic will run into Valentina there?

  30. SallyB.(AuntiecherishesZandheryoung)

    July 17, 2015 at 7:27 pm

    / Reply

    Thank you so much John for this wealth of info. I always thought that Coz’s back end looked more like Zenyatta’s; then to find the smaller Ziconic has her beam was such a surprise. I love both of Z’s sons. I enjoy so much of your insight.

    God bless Z, her sons and you, Dottie and the Moss’es.
    Love you, Sally B

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